Season Four, Behind the Scenes: “The Conspirators”
Transcript

MISSION VOICE: Good evening agents.

MISSION VOICE: The EMF continues to investigate the writing collective known as the Porch Room and their slanderous fictionalization of our agency.

MISSION VOICE: It seems that their network of spies extends far beyond our initial suspicions, perhaps even beyond time and space themselves or at least to Washington State.

MISSION VOICE: Mission: Rejected. The story of the world's most unlikely podcasters... The Porch Room. Tonight's episode: The Conspirators.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: All right, welcome everybody to our season four behind the scenes episode. We're gonna have a real serious and profound discussion about the art, the art of audio fiction here and I'm so pleased to be joined by my colleagues from the Porch Room, Pete and John. Pete. Why don't you say hello?

PETE BARRY: How's it going?

PETE BARRY: That's all you get.

PETE BARRY: That's my whole intro!

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: And John...

JOHN DOWGIN: Good evening, good evening world and assorted guests of note and import.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: Yeah, I would say at this point if you're listening to the season four, our fourth behind the scenes episode and you need deep introductions from John Pete and I go back and listen to the season one behind the scenes episode -

PETE BARRY: And the rest of the show while you're at it.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: We are, we are so pleased to be joined by two, friends, fellow podcasters and very recognizable voices. Both had a multiple guest starring roles on Mission: Rejected this season. First up from 1/9 World Journal. It's David S dear. Hello, David.

DAVID S. DEAR: Hello.

DAVID S. DEAR: It's really great to be here. I, I feel like I have to say that. Hello, Pittsburgh and New York! Or Philadelphia! Whoops. That was a, that was a big whoops.

PETE BARRY: Wait, can they hear us in Pittsburgh?

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: Pittsburgh?

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: And you know her and love her as Doctor Pickle, but her own show is Oz-9. Say hello to Shannon Perry.

SHANNON PERRY: Hi ya!

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: Well, what more needs to be said?

SHANNON PERRY: Sorry, I got nothing.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: Well, we've all been doing our shows for roughly the same amount of time. David and Shannon started a little bit before Mission: Rejected.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: And we definitely, they were both shows that we latched on to early on when we were starting our enterprise. So I can remember listening to both shows when we were in pre-production and thinking: "Yeah, this is the kind of stuff that we want to be aspiring to."

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: So it's a real pleasure that we have now had the chance to work together and and, and become friends. It's, it's been one of the real perks of having Mission: Rejected and being a part of this great audio fiction community So thank you so much.

SHANNON PERRY: I'd say it's more play than work, I think.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: I, I don't know, I'll ask, I'll turn it over to Pete and John for a moment. Mission Rejected for me is never not fun and it's never not the best thing I've got going on at any given moment. But for the first time in the four years, at some point in the middle of the season I went: "Oh, this is really hard."

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: It started to feel, it started to feel harder than it had been. I have, I have, you know, my own theories as to why that was but did, did, did, did Pete and John feel feel the same way?

PETE BARRY: I mean, I think that I'd be very curious to hear John's perspective on this for, for reasons I think he knows. But like, it's interesting when you said that Shannon that you like, like come on, it's fun. I think it's, it's fun when I'm doing it with you guys and when I'm doing it all, all five of us, all the people that we work with when we're in a room.

PETE BARRY: It is, it is so much fun. And everyone knows in our show that when I'm directing an episode, it takes way too long. I go on for way too long. And I think part of it is because I'm having so much fun. I also love, you know, for the first three seasons I was the editor and this season John's pick up half the editing duties.

PETE BARRY: But like, I, I love that part of it. I, you know, John, I, in some senses, I, I realized he had to pry it from my cold, still alive hands. But like that can be the work part for me and my, from my perspective, like I love doing it, but it definitely is a lot of work and it's like, OK, I'm now, I'm alone and, and doing this, it's very fulfilling.

PETE BARRY: It's very satisfying. I, I love that part of it, but it is definitely, I mean, Shannon and David, you, you know, and John now and, and you know, Mike, you've put together at least a handful of bonus audios on other things on your own time.

PETE BARRY: I mean, editing and, and assembling the show from scratch is, is a lot of work. And I say this as a person who is constantly proselytizing to other potential and current podcasters that you should try this and you should go out and do it because you, it is within your capability.

PETE BARRY: But I don't want people to underestimate the amount of, of effort that it does take to make something that that is, I mean, you know, I don't want to toot our own horn and say, I mean, I think we've done a really good thing. I love Shannon and David's shows the work that, that we each put in on it, it, you know, it makes a difference to, to what you hear.

JOHN DOWGIN: So, well, anything, anything that's, yes, anything that's worth doing is gonna be to some extent work and, you know, the definition of professionalism is doing the thing you need to do on a day when you don't necessarily feel like doing it because it's gotta get done.

JOHN DOWGIN: I mean, like the, the "work" work part of putting an episode together is the splicing up the dialogue when we've had, you know, eight people in Mike's condo and five more recording separately. And I've got, you know, twelve 90 minute wave files that I got to wade through to pick apart to, you know, figure out which not, which takes of Nazli's are best, which takes of Skip's are best which, which takes everybody's mix best together.

SHANNON PERRY: So basically you guys are telling me that I'm wrong. Is that what I'm hearing here?

JOHN DOWGIN: No, because I don't know, I have no idea.

DAVID S. DEAR: I don't think Shannon does either, so...

SHANNON PERRY: I don't, I don't have the clue.

PETE BARRY: I don't understand anything John is saying right now. So no, but, but I mean, it's, but, but this is totally fair. Like this is John's experience. This is, you know, we each have a different way of, of editing and putting the, the elements together and Yeah. Yeah.

JOHN DOWGIN: And once you get, once you get everything picked apart and once you begin actually assembling it and fine tuning it and you hear the jokes start to come together and, you know, even if it's, even if it, you've heard them 15 times and you wrote them and it's the least funny thing you've ever heard in your entire life.

JOHN DOWGIN: You know, it's gonna have a life when it comes alive to somebody else. I have to tell David and Shannon though about, episode 401, when I got your first round of notes, Pete, have I, have I told you this story?

PETE BARRY: I'm not, I'm not entirely sure. I'm a little afraid.

JOHN DOWGIN: Season four, episode one was the first full episode I edited and I started early, I started like I put, as soon as I had all the way files, I put everything aside, I just hacked them all apart. I put together a, a cut and I wanted to give myself as much as much time.

JOHN DOWGIN: But I, I thought the first cut came out pretty good and I dropped it up in the Google Drive and sent the link to Mike and Pete. And a day or so later I get an email from Pete and it says, all right. So it sounds really good. Good. Good start. I have a couple of comments.

JOHN DOWGIN: I copy the comments out of the email and drop them into words so I can Mark them off. As I go, they come to five single spaced pages.

JOHN DOWGIN: I'm working through them and the final comment on the fifth single space page is "Ok, that's the first ten minutes."

SHANNON PERRY: Holy cow.

PETE BARRY: Yep.

JOHN DOWGIN: I'll get you more comments when I'Ve had time to listen to the rest.

PETE BARRY: I am a harsh master.

JOHN DOWGIN: You, but, but all of your comments were completely correct and I, and I like to, I like to think that you had less notes for me as this season went on.

JOHN DOWGIN: But I don't know if it's specifically true, I think because you generally, you generally have a lot of notes, especially when it's your, the reason it takes so long when you direct it is because you have a very, very, very clear idea of what you want, whereas I have a ballpark and if they land at the ballpark, I'm content, but you have a very clear vision and not that that's a bad thing, but you, you know what you want and you're gonna work it until it sounds exactly like it was in your head.

PETE BARRY: That is the nicest way of putting a domineering, controlling personality. Yeah, into that. But yeah, David, I really want to hear you and Shannon talk about your, your process as well.

DAVID S. DEAR: So yeah, that's all right.

DAVID S. DEAR: It, what I was gonna say, is it interesting talk, hearing John talk about that because you being such a meticulous and you know, detail oriented director, I've worked with directors on, on stage plays where they had all the blocking already specked out completely before you even got to the table read, I mean, they were that meticulous and they had that precise of a vision where I've worked with other directors that were, oh, well, let's just go ahead and scrap all the blocking and, we're gonna redo this part of the set and you're, you know, a third of the way through the rehearsals, before, before, tech.

DAVID S. DEAR: But I think it really, it, there, it's not a right or wrong way. I think it's just that creative process really at work and how people feel the most creative. I mean, like Shannon, you're very much just kind of a fly by the seat of your pants. And I think when you're given really specific granular details that, you know, you need to adhere to, I just don't think you thrive in that environment.

DAVID S. DEAR: So I think it's interesting, it's so interesting to see how, you know, diverse the creative process is when it comes from different people and how, what really works for them. What really doesn't, it's not all right brained all day long for everybody.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: So I have, I want to ask our, our, our solo practitioners David and Shannon, you know, Mission: Rejected is -

PETE BARRY: How the hell do you do it? No, go ahead.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: So just, just purely from a writing standpoint, you know, every episode of Mission: Rejected is the work of an individual and the group at the same time time because we all submit our scripts to notes from the writing team. And so by the writing team, I mean, the three of us, as well as Paige Klaniecki, who also plays Gloria, but has been a regular contributor to the writing staff since the second season.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: And is one of the best note givers like in the business.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: Really can, can, like, get to the heart of something in a way that is like "Oh, right! I, I, that's what I meant!"

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: So it is obviously a real boon to have that support and you can always, you know, I've certainly, I think at, at any given time on any script, any one of us had said, yeah, I see that you all said this, but I'm keeping this joke because it tickles me or, or, or whatever. Right? Right? Right.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: But, but for the most part, the notes are incredibly helpful, you know, even if you're like, oh, I really like this bit to go. Yeah. You know what I can hear exactly what they're saying, it's gonna slow things down or it's a little out of character or a twice this year. And I, I, because Pete and I have been writing partners, you know, we've written things together for 20 years,

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: we're often very in sync. But twice this year, Pete said to gave me these notes and I called them and I was like, how are you not like, how are you not seeing what I'm, what I've written because you're telling me to do exactly what I think this scene is doing and he's going: "Well, I'm not seeing that."

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: So it's, you know, it's helpful to have that, that space. So, on the flip side, how, how, how do you sort of manage bouncing ideas or do you show anyone your scripts before you send them out or is it just, you're the true auteur?

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: And when it's right for you, you send it out to your, your, your, your casts. I, I know Oz-9 does table reads and that can sometimes result in revision, but I'm really curious about both of your processes.

SHANNON PERRY: So the, I don't... as far as the writing goes, it's usually just me and I feel like I could probably hugely benefit from an editor, but I'm very thin skinned.

SHANNON PERRY: I recently sent a film script off to a professional reader to, to give me some notes. And basically, I could have spent that $200 on sugar free gummy bears and gotten the same experience a little like being flayed alive. But it was also really good for me.

SHANNON PERRY: So I could probably benefit from an editor quite frankly. I, I envy you guys's ability to work together so seamlessly and to remain friends. Quite frankly, I think that's incredibly impressive. I think it's hard to work together. It's hard to give up the creative control and all that stuff.

SHANNON PERRY: But yeah, so in terms of like, when the product is done, it's really, it, it, for me it's basically a product of time. Like, I'll push the deadline until I can't push it any further. And then I have 35 minutes until I read through. And I've, you know, that's it. That's pretty much my process.

SHANNON PERRY: I rely on external pressure to get it done.

SHANNON PERRY: And to be honest, I don't know if I could do it if it weren't in, if it weren't the podcast because it, there's something about hearing Bonnie's voice and my brother Eric's voice and David's voice and all those people's voices in my heads that in my heads, I only have one in my head as far as, you know, would I have chosen this one if I had more, there's something about hearing their voices in my head that makes the writing part easier at, at times, it really does feel like I'm just sitting back and listening to the cast kind of riff and, and taking notes.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: So David. What about you?

DAVID S. DEAR: Oh, as far as the process goes, it's... I rely on my, you know, multiple personalities to, to do that because there's the first drought which is a really kind of, it's, it's very, you know, stream of consciousness kind of thing, even though you have a framework of where you want the episode to go or where you want the season to go and how the episode contributes to that.

DAVID S. DEAR: But then I have to kind of walk away from it. And a lot of times I'll not revisit that script until the season is completely written. Then I'll go back and revisit them one by one because I'm in a different brain space at that point, since I don't, I'm not giving my scripts to other people to look at or review or anything like that.

DAVID S. DEAR: I'm, it's just kind of been so used to being a one man show with that, that I'Ve just kind of had to step into it in a different skin, in a different editorial skin and, and look at it more clinically. So I don't let myself be the, you know, clinical.

DAVID S. DEAR: How is this gonna read and how's this gonna sound kind of person when I'm, when I'm writing it? But when I go back and revisit it, then it's actually kind of more of the critical. Well, how does this read? How do these lines work together? How will, how does this, how does this line sound off the tongue?

DAVID S. DEAR: Because, and I'll actually kind of start reading it out loud a little bit to see if it sounds natural when spoken because it's very different as, as you all know, when you write a sentence versus how it would sound naturally. It's a, it's a very different thing.

DAVID S. DEAR: So, yeah, I'm having to kind of, you know, it's like, you know, the, the whole thing where you see the guy talking to himself and he kind of goes to one side of the room, then he goes to the other side of the room switching back and forth. It's that, but just a long protracted process, it doesn't sound very creative.

PETE BARRY: But, yeah, David like, that when you first, no, no, no. But like when, when you first started the show was largely a monologue, right? Like it was, I mean, the first season, possibly two seasons. That was all you. And so that was definitely a very like, it's I remember being hooked from by your show from episode one. Just the concept and the story and the character and the, and your voice frankly. And like, it's a real leap of faith, really believing in yourself that like you've like got OK, I'm writing this and then I'm listening to myself, read the words that I wrote a whole other compartment of my brain and then I'm editing what I said and it's like, yeah, that must have been a, that must be a super fascinating process and, and considering the result, I'm, I'm always so impressed by your show.

PETE BARRY: You know, I've, I've said I'm such a fan of it, but like, it's such a great, you know, it, it, it comes together so well, whatever your process was.

DAVID S. DEAR: I appreciate that, but it didn't feel like it was going to be sustainably long term to do the monologue thing. So that's kind of why the second season I decided to do multiple voices and multiple actors. I think it, I think the story was able to expand and be told better when there were multiple voices. And, you know, speaking of the voices, this is one of the things that I have to, I have to give a nod to Shannon that when you are writing characters and I know that you three do it as well, you four do it. Actually. I mean, when I'm listening to an episode, it, I have to listen really hard to see if I can distinguish between John or Pete or Michael, who, who wrote that episode. There might be little tiny things that made me go, oh, ok. That might be this person writing because I like to listen to it first and then see who wrote it. And I usually am. It's 50/50 if I get it right.

JOHN DOWGIN: That is, you are not the first, you are not the first person to, to say that to me. And it's funny because Shannon, you said that you're impressed at how we've been able to work together for so long, productively and remain friends. And I have always theorized that the reason at least I think that we are able to work together creatively and remain friends is because I know I feel like, what I do is completely different from what Pete and might do. Like, I could never write, I could never write, one of Pete's originals, like outside of, outside of Mission Rejected. I've read, you know, a lot of, a lot of things that Pete's written. I would never even think of the idea. And the same, the same with Mike's stuff.

PETE BARRY: For sure, for sure. Yeah. Absolutely. Vice versa.

JOHN DOWGIN: So it's funny that we have managed to come up with something that feels like us as a group. And I think it's because I think it's because when Mike or Pete gave me a note, I'm completely unp precious about it. I'm just like, oh, ok. Well, I know what I do but I also know what they do and if we're gonna make this thing better than just one of us working on it, then we need to, you know, trust in each other and go with the notes that, that we all agree, make it the best possible thing. Speaking of. Speaking of David's voice though real quick, I, I absolutely wanted to get this in before we, before my, my time is up.

JOHN DOWGIN: So David, when you first recorded Terry Millionaire this year and you sent Mike the. wav, I get a text, I was editing that episode and I get a text: "David's. wav is in the folder. He has decided Terry Millionaire is Frank Langella." I cannot begin to tell you the wave of excitement that washed over me because it was, oh, I get to hear David's Frank Langella. We're, we're dropping everything and we're downloading this thing right now.

DAVID S. DEAR: I hope it didn't disappoint.

JOHN DOWGIN: It did not.

JOHN DOWGIN: I, I digress. David was about to say something.

DAVID S. DEAR: What was the question? I don't remember. I could find it. Oh, the question was when you talk because I'm Shannon. Shannon. You said you were thick skinned and then John, you said that

SHANNON PERRY: THIN skinned

DAVID S. DEAR: You know, they give you notes and you're - thin skinned, thank you.

DAVID S. DEAR: And John, you give notes, they'll, you'll get notes from Michael Pe and be like, OK, so is it because you're so collaborative in this work? So if, if it was your own piece or did you experience this with any of your own pieces where you are a little bit more sensitive to the criticism?

JOHN DOWGIN: Once or.. I mean, once or twice, I get a note and I'm like grumble, grumble. I like that. I like that joke. But then you step away and you think about it and but I think it is.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: David, I think you're on to something. It's that when we're writing something solo or if it's Pete and I writing something or John and Pete writing something or John and I, you know, it's not the collective, right?

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: The, I don't want to say that the notes count a little less, but the notes count a little less, like I, I deeply respect their input on my solo work, but because it's that whatever that's going to be is my vision. I'm a little, I, I might be a little more precious or a little more protective and maybe not take it because I, I could see like Pete giving me a really great note on a play and I say to myself, oh, but if I take that note now, that's a Pete Barry moment, right?

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: Like it's like it and it would be great and it would be funny or it would be weird or powerful. But it's not, it's not me. It's not what I had in my head and I, I probably would set it aside, but here we're working towards a collective goal in a world that the three of us created equally. And so it is very much like "Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, that's, that's, you're right. We should give that line to Bowden so that Skip could do this and that. Yes. Ok. All right. I'm gonna lose my one hundredth David Lynch joke. But that's OK."

JOHN DOWGIN: You know, you got, you got them all back in in one episode.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: I really did.

PETE BARRY: No, I, I was just gonna say, yeah, it's like John says like, I, I think as writers, we all know that you, you never entirely get over that grumble grumble phase, right? Like I get notes all the time from these guys and it's just like, well, I'll just take a minute to go over here and throw a chair or whatever. But that, but, you know, it's gonna right, you get past it right as you grow as a writer, you're like, ok, take your time to go sulk in the corner for a minute and then come back and say, ok, you're right. They, they were absolutely correct when they said this, that and the other thing you, you know, you can you get past your initial emotional reaction and usually, you know, that is a tiny percentage of the, of the notes I get, I'll see a note. I'll be like, oh yeah, absolutely. It also depends on how strongly I felt when I finished the script.

PETE BARRY: There are some scripts I have finished. I think I'm looking at you, murder mystery 309, where I got done and I'm like, I have no idea if this is gonna work or not. So I need you guys to tell me if, if this is working or is this not working and just give me the notes.

PETE BARRY: So yeah, it also depends on how, how solid I feel about a thing. But then, you know, every single script, someone will give me a note and it'll be like, OK, yeah, you are right. You always be in the position of you're so right about that note. I know if I pull on that thread, it's gonna unravel a lot of things. So can I tie this up and figure it out or do I have to pull that thread and make the whole script stronger from scratch? I guess I do. So, you know, it, it just because, you know, you know, you you can never be, I mean, maybe people can get it completely immune to the, the pain of criticism but like it's just part of growing as an artist and you know, we remain friends forever.

PETE BARRY: That may make, that may soften the blow itself.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: Well, John, I know that you're short on time this evening. So I wanna give you, I want to give you an opportunity to just have the floor for a moment and reflect on season four or, or audio fiction, this, this little enterprise of ours more broadly, before you say good night.

JOHN DOWGIN: I absolutely cannot believe it's been four seasons and I absolutely also at the same time, feel like it's been four seasons. I am enjoying a few months, not having to worry about it because I know in about a month, I'm gonna start to feel itchy and might actually start cranking out a couple of specs to maybe throw into season five.

JOHN DOWGIN: I've never met an artist who's happy and feels like they've done everything they've set out to do. And that includes some of the most famous wealthy artists I've ever had the opportunity to run into, none of none of us feel like we're done or that we've done it. But when I look at this, like you said, Mike, there's never really a moment that it's not artistically, the best thing we got going on. Like I think it was this season, we got one of the greatest compliments I ever got as a writer. We have a super fan in the Philippines who named their cat after my character. There is a cat named Doctor Studebaker, somewhere in, somewhere in the Philippines.

JOHN DOWGIN: And if I if I if I do get down like working on this non-Mission: Rejected script that I'm looking at which ends draft nine-underscore-c, every writer on earth will know that feeling. You know, when I look at that and feel like I just can't do it anymore. I remember that there is a cat somewhere in the world who says otherwise.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: John, I think it's time for you to go to bed.

JOHN DOWGIN: Good evening, everyone. Tell Paige I said hello.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: Thanks for a great season. We'll see. We'll wake you up when it's time for season five.

JOHN DOWGIN: Let's just do it again.

PETE BARRY: Can, can I ask a question next, Mike of everyone, Shannon, David, Mike, how are we doing? We've been at this for like five years apiece now. How we doin'?

SHANNON PERRY: A little stunned, I think, you know, we, you know, like so many people I think we started out just saying we're just gonna do this for fun. This is just gonna be a fun thing that we do for ourselves, you know, and then suddenly people are listening that we have not that we're not like related by blood to. So that was a surprise.

DAVID S. DEAR: What you create, I think invariably ends up being something different than what you set out to create and how it goes. To be honest, like I, you know, mentioned, it's, it was a monologue for season one. I didn't even know if there would be a season two and season two morphed and I didn't know how long that would be until I it kind of shaped itself. This is a finite show, I think, unlike your two shows, Oz-9 and Mission: Rejected. This one has a very definitive ending as of the next season and I didn't really know where I was gonna go and, and I actually ended up having to kind of take some down time.

DAVID S. DEAR: Now the next season is coming out this or finishing out this fall. But I'm kind of irregular in the way I produce because I'm so driven by, if I'm, you know, if the wind of inspiration is, is blowing up my back or if it's not blowing at all. And so I kind of just let that dictate how I produce. I'm not motivated by deadlines. I, I work to them, but they're not the fire under, under me is they are the same way as you. But the curse of that is you leave these long gaps and people going, what's going on. You know, I, I forgot what happened in season three.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: I, I had a weird bee in my bonnet the first two years about ending on the calendar year, which I now can't explain. I don't. But it was, and, you know, after the second year Pete was like, we can't, it's too much where that means either you're producing nonstop or you're doing, you're doing three times a year or two episodes in a month and you're gonna kill me as the, as the editor. And I said "Well, what good are you to be alive?" And I was like, well, no, no. And so, and so we took a longer break and -

PETE BARRY: We'll just get a zombie editor!

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: And we, you know, we never we never looked back. It was a much better way of doing things and who cares if it's ends on December or what? That's not how anything works. So I, I own my own weird foible about that.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: And I wanna welcome to the room, Paige. Welcome, Paige!

PAIGE KLANIECKI: Hello. Hi. Thanks for having me and letting me join late.

PETE BARRY: I'm so no problem. We're so happy to see you or hear you.

DAVID S. DEAR: I think it's really John putting on a voice or it was Paige putting on a voice earlier. I don't know which it is.

PETE BARRY: It could be. You'll never know.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: Well, Paige, I'm, I'm so excited you're here because we've never really gotten you on a behind the scene show. That's really about the, the writing process. You, we've talked to you about being, Gloria, but we haven't had too many opportunities to talk to you about, being a writer on the show.

PAIGE KLANIECKI: Oh, yes. Well, I'm happy, happy to be here and talk about that. It's been just such a treat to, to be a part of that part of the process as well.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: So I'll just, I'll, I'll, I'll pitch to you a question that that Pete and I were, were, were chewing on at the start and John as well, he, he just had to duck out. So he already gave his answer. But was there anything, was there anything that felt like a challenge this year compared to other years or was it the same sort of free wheeling adventure that it has been since season two?

PAIGE KLANIECKI: I mean, I think there was a couple of different things about this year and with, within the differences, of course, there are, you know, new challenges and new opportunities. The, the biggest challenge that just comes to mind is something that's, it's a bit ineffable. But for, for whatever reason, the first episode I wrote for the season, like I just had to brute force it out. It did not ever reach a moment of flow, which is like, for me is the, you know, the ultimate thing you look for when you're writing is when you hit that, it feels so good. And it wasn't that I was like, oh, this is bad, but I just, I just, I could not find whatever, what, whatever, like rhythmic karmic thing I was trying to tap into and eventually got there.

PAIGE KLANIECKI: And you guys remember getting a very rough version of the draft and that helped get it on track. But sometimes, yeah, I think you just, you don't get that. But the episode still had to get done. So to your point that schedule helped it get done because otherwise I might have hemmed and hawed about it for forever.

PAIGE KLANIECKI: And then go ahead, go ahead.

PETE BARRY: No, go ahead, please. You, you continue.

PAIGE KLANIECKI: Well, I was gonna talk about other challenges and other episodes and stuff. So if you have a reaction to that.

PETE BARRY: I was just gonna say, I was gonna say I had the same thing going on in the finale honestly that like it's just like without that deadline, I was like up against the wall being like this just has to happen and it just took so long so I could appreciate what you were going through on that episode. Yeah.

PAIGE KLANIECKI: Yeah. And I think I remember Michael saying he had another episode this season at one point that felt similar to that.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: I felt that way about number six in particular, a little bit eleven. But Pete... Pete unlocked that episode for me. And so once he did, once he made the suggestion that I make David Lynch a character in it, then obviously, I had a stock pile of David Lynch jokes.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: But six was tough because I could not figure out what the mission was. I loved the idea of them being at prom. And I love the idea of meeting Mackenzie's mom - who's on, on this call right now. So I want to talk to Shannon about that.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: But, but I could not figure out what the mission was and, you know, he has contributed to this show before, but I have to thank my nephew Billy who was 12, 12, I guess at the time, when I asked him, what, what would be a silly evil plot that his school principal could be hatching? And he shut his eyes and he thought a minute and he said "They could be selling number three pencils!" And I laughed so hard. I was like, well, that's certainly funny. I was like, I don't know how evil it is. And then he went "And they're diamond tipped!" and I was like, ok. And I, I remember I told Pete that and again, eventually Pete was like, go back to that like the pencil idea is the funniest thing of all the things we've come up with.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: And there was...

PETE BARRY: Also Chris is like, reading of that line. Skip: "Like these are diamond tipped number three pencils!", like Skip can't stand that. They're number three pencils.

PAIGE KLANIECKI: You can't, you can't take the PSAS.

PAIGE KLANIECKI: That's interesting, Michael because I, I think you said, like, you know, you knew where they wanted, you wanted them to be and like, you knew some characters but didn't have necessarily like the crux or the conflict of the episode sorted out. And like, I think that was maybe the issue with, with episode two, which is the one I was saying I was having trouble with.

PAIGE KLANIECKI: I knew it needed to be a treasure hunt because that had been a request after allegedly, I suggested it after several drinks. I don't remember suggesting it, but that was on the docket to do. And I was like, ok, a treasure hunt. What is the conflict here? And so I was trying to like, build the story without that.

PAIGE KLANIECKI: And I think that's maybe why it never hit that point of just flowing and you need to have that to drive, you know, characters to make decisions, drive the plot. And so that's maybe, yeah, why it was just a harder one to, to get to find that rhythmic flow.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: Yeah, I, I definitely understand that. I think that, sometimes it's a... Pete and I were actually just, talking the other day about, like, how many times have we thought of the mission first or as opposed to the, to the trappings or the, or the idea of a character first? And I think for me sort of post season one, I lean towards the, the, the ladder that I have a scenario that I want to put them in. But I, I don't always have the, the mission and I, I promise to work harder on that in season five.

PAIGE KLANIECKI: That's, that's almost always my, my method as well just for, for this and also for other non mission, rejected writing projects. Like I, I have told many people that I think plot is sometimes my weak point but like the world building the characters, like that's, that's the fun stuff. And so it often, yeah, comes second and maybe is the thing that I also need to work on.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: David and Shannon. Do you have pitfalls or, or, or blocks that you know, that you have when you are working on your respective shows that you, you know, you endeavor to overcome. Whether we, whether we do or not.

SHANNON PERRY: David, I think you can lead this one off.

DAVID S. DEAR: I'm dealing with one in season, the second, second episode of season of the, of the final season, I'm writing. Sorry to say this Shannon, but it's with your character. It's no reflection on you of course, so it's just like, you know, because a lot of times for when you've got a show that's, that's serialized, like, like this one is, it, it or has become, there are some of the episodes are vehicles to drive the plot forward.

DAVID S. DEAR: So you have to kind of make the episode, have a story within itself without just being this kind of interstitial episode that doesn't really do anything but serve an entire story, but it just doesn't do anything in and of itself.

DAVID S. DEAR: So trying to avoid that the serialization that that is a danger, it feels like to me where you get in that trap of like, OK, I don't want to just put a bunch of words here and fill it so I can drive to the next plot point. I need stuff within this particular episode. And that's, that's a challenge where I am right now and where I'Ve, what that I faced throughout telling this story.

SHANNON PERRY: Yeah. Yeah. My biggest problem has always been conflict, you know, I don't, I don't like it in real life and I find it hard to write it so things tend to get resolved really quickly and bad guys turn into good guys a lot.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: Well, you know, Shannon, that's a, that's a really interesting observation because I I think that one of the characteristics of Oz-9 is that the characters do bicker a lot, which is not exactly the same as conflict. Right. They, they're a, they're a, a quarrelsome group, but you're right. You have, like, you have latched, like, your bad guys have just become part of the, the, the group, right? Like, they show up to cause trouble and now they're still on board and, you know, get them, get them, get them something out of the sandwich vending machine.

SHANNON PERRY: Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's a problem I have, and probably part of the problem too is that I tend to really like the actor and so I want to keep them around and so I can't, you know, we can't really kill them off or, or, or send them away or do anything lasting with them. We just have to turn them into good guys so that we can keep them.

SHANNON PERRY: So, yeah, that's a problem. I wish that was real life but it doesn't.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: This is a good transition because it's, it's something we haven't really had to deal with. We had to deal with it a tiny little bit this year. But Shannon, you actually had to say goodbye to some cast members recently and which sort of has changed the, the dynamic a little.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: But like, how did, how, how was, how was that, like, how has that affected, writing? I mean, you were ma you managed to, really nicely wrap up, you know, the sort of the major arc that everybody was, was on and leave room for these new adventures. But what, like, how, how, how was that? Having to, say goodbye both. You know, it's sad when you, you know, you like the people you're working with and they can't do it anymore. But also just from like a, a writing perspective because you've had some people even and you had to recast, some, some people, so, like, does, does, that's, I think I, I want to start there when you recast. Does it change the voice of the character?

SHANNON PERRY: It really does. And it's, it's interesting because I didn't, I don't know that I realized quite how much I write to the voice of the actor until I'Ve, you know, we, we've swapped out an actor for another actor and that in the same role and suddenly I'm writing that character differently and that's a, that's a real thing that happened. I definitely noticed that with Julie, she's a different character now.

SHANNON PERRY: Since we lost Irie and, and brought Chrissy on board, you know, it was, it was interesting how losing June and, and Richard Cowan in such quick order because we had this very emotional parting with, with the Albatross and where people where the cast was genuinely in tears.

SHANNON PERRY: So the tears that you hear are for real, you know, she just wasn't able to continue on with, with doing the character and, you know, having a real life. So, that was for real. And then we lost Leet fairly shortly thereafter and we were all still so emotionally wrung out that his goodbye was a whole lot less heartfelt. It was kind of like I was saying on this planet. Oh, that's sad. Well, see ya, you know.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: Yeah, because you, you just, you could, you couldn't do it to yourself. Right. You couldn't put everyone through.

SHANNON PERRY: Exactly. It was like, don't let the wormhole hit you in the ass on the way out. You know, it was like that really was because it was just, we couldn't do it a second time. It, it didn't have the same feel to it. We'd all been through a fairly big emotional thing recently anyway. So it was just, you know, it was, it was, it was easier just to kind of let that one go a little more gently.

SHANNON PERRY: So, and then, you know, the elephant in the room recasting the narrator Richard's narrator with, with Chris, his daughter, you know, as awful as the whole situation was and as painful as that was, she made it so much better.

SHANNON PERRY: I mean, by offering to take that spot and then just being brilliant in it and so funny and such a wonderful, bringing such wonderful energy to the role. Like she, there, there's no way to make that happy, but she sure has held made it a heck of a lot better than it would have been.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: So a herculean effort. I adore her narrator.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: She's, I, I'm very lucky to have met her in person. I could say I adore her in person as well. But she she's a wonderful as the narrator and her interplay with Kyle as narrator too is wonderful. They're a double team in a way that's very different than the way. Kyle and Richard, I interacted and I, I just, I adore them together. Yeah.

SHANNON PERRY: They, they're, they're wonderful fun to listen to. They're wonderful, fun to write with. They watching them do the table reads is just delightful. They, they have great energy, they play off each other beautifully. It's just, it's, it's sweet and it's lovely and it's all the things.

DAVID S. DEAR: Well, Shannon not to minimize, you know, why anybody is no longer part of the show or leaves the show. But there's a beautiful function in the changes that had to be made. And, and the changes that did occur. I mean, when you talk about like we're just, you know, heralding, narrator one and two. That whole dynamic. It's kind of, it's a, it's a shot in the arm almost and I know that all of us as writers have to figure out how we're going to, you know, not all of a sudden find ourselves in season six and, you know, trying to figure out what we're doing, time after time because, you know how we watch television shows and we're like, why didn't they just hang it up after season seven.... The Simpsons.

DAVID S. DEAR: There's, there's, so I think when those things happen, they're kind of, they do us favors in a way and we can kind of revitalize and, you know, what we can do with our stories. So I think that there, to me it's like there, there are gifts in, in, in having Chris and Chrissie and, yeah, and for sure.

SHANNON PERRY: And Sarah Warner, I was, I was just about to go there. I mean, what a glorious thing. And I mean, June the Albatross was one of my favorite characters. I absolutely loved what June did with it. She was so good and just, she could turn on a dime in ways I never expected, even though I wrote the line like that, I loved that and she was so amazing at that and she's, she left the hole.

SHANNON PERRY: But now we have Pippy, which is this fun. We're still trying to find our legs or our wings, I guess, with this character a little bit, but she's funny and, and Sarah's lovely and wonderful and all the things so, you.

DAVID S. DEAR: Know, can, can I, can I throw in some little, you know, trumpeting about Sarah for a moment and I know she's been on, you know, Mission: Rejected so we can all take turns. The I she was written into season five and the way I wrote for Sarah is, is you know, I know her voice, we, we know her voice, we know what she does and we know she's got that, got that, you know, unassuming saccharine kind of feel to her. So I deliberately use that character but also made her, this is not a spoiler because season five's half of it is out is she's a thief and she's a liar and she's got these, but she's just kind of got that disarming charm and I thought, oh, I'm gonna just employ that and use it and, oh, of course, she just makes it work so brilliantly.

PETE BARRY: I told, like, your Pat's, yeah, Pat's Pat's power is her niceness and the, the scarier she gets the nicer she gets like she can weaponize her niceness. I just thought it was a thing that only Sarah could really do in that in that Sarah way. And, yeah, she's, she's been a real asset to three of our shows. She's just, you know, and what's great is that we get to become over these years. We become friends with everybody and like, you know, everybody gets to work together. That is the play. That is the fun, right? That it's just, it's been such a joy.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: We all, we all act on the shows that we write for. So, do you, I mean, is it and David in particular, you're, you are the lead of your show in season one? You were the only actor. So, it's a little bit different for you. But do you, does, does anybody skew to writing more or less for yourself?

DAVID S. DEAR: Less?

DAVID S. DEAR: I am not writing in my own voice and I don't know that I know how and I listen, III, I get in front of the mic and I start reading. I'm like I wrote this. What? This just feels all sorts of off, you know, and it feels almost a little bit canned and forced and it's just my own critical ear. So I'm leaning on everybody else's contrasting beautiful performances that they give to make it not sound so... (gagging noises).

SHANNON PERRY: I think I enjoy more the characters. I'm not playing Madeleine and Olivia both serve a particular purpose in the cast. Like occasionally Madeleine is has to kind of captain and Olivia has to sort of guide action. And so those, those are very functional characters. I feel like it took at least a season and a half for Madeleine to, to evolve to the character that she is. I'm not sure I had a clear vision for her from the start, but, you know, I get so wrapped up in the, in the other characters. Ii, I think I write more for others than I do for my own characters.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: And what about you, Paige, as another person who has, you know, Pete and I have little parts and recurring parts, but we don't have lead characters to write for.

PAIGE KLANIECKI: Yeah, I, I think I, I skew away from writing Gloria. Yeah, I think I do. I, I think for the style of comedy, like, I guess I feel like I understand the others a little bit better or they, it, it feels like it comes a bit more naturally. Like, I, I think there's a, by, by nature of having to be Gloria, I feel like I also, there also has to be a degree of separation because it is a character. It is not me. And so when I'm in the writing process, I'm not writing me doing it, I'm writing a character that's not me and also is not what I'Ve heard. It's what I like.

PAIGE KLANIECKI: It's not someone... I could listen to Chris do his line a million times. I don't listen to myself, do my line a million times because it's I'm saying it. So it's, I don't know if that makes sense, but I, I do, yeah, I guess I, I don't feel like it comes quite as naturally as and I -

SHANNON PERRY: Think we all kind of feel that, you know, I don't want to give myself all the really good lines. You know, there's a little bit of hesitation to, to, yeah, I think that's part of it too.

PAIGE KLANIECKI: Well, so, so for for Pete and Michael and you know, John, who is in the Ether, you guys, you know, do take on roles that are recur multiple roles that tend to be smaller, but, you know, you write these roles somewhat frequently because there are so many that you guys have done over, over the episodes.

PAIGE KLANIECKI: Do you, when you're writing these roles, how quickly do you realize, like, I want to play this role or do you ever write it for one, for one of the other people that you might, sometimes I know you guys bring in, you know, guest stars, of course, to, to fill in these roles like, like Ben or sometimes we have Bob do. It's like, what is the process of you've conceived this character? When do you know how far that goes?

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: The only part I knew I wanted to play as I was writing, it was Mario Cappretti. Larry... I mean, you know, I Larry, let's the, the Larry voice has been around before Mission: Rejected. But, but the truth is Pete and I did... the very first thing we ever recorded -

PETE BARRY: That's right.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: - for Mission: Rejected was to test, to test was Larry and Kristatos as, just as a test. I don't know exactly why we chose that, but we did. So and Pete just wanted to try various recording methods and various editing styles to see if it would sound good. And he cut this little thing together of him doing Kistatos and me being Larry in, in 106 and we were like, "Oh, yeah, great. We can do this." So then we just locked ourselves into playing those parts because we had, we had already done it as the sort of like demo, the demo reel.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: I would say broadly speaking, I'm the casting director for Mission: Rejected. I have a spreadsheet with every episode in it and a cast list and I list all of the recurring people. So I go, OK, I know I'm gonna have to call Shannon and David and Sarah and let them know that they're gonna be in this episode. And then I make a list of all of the new characters. And I typically look at it and, and go, ok, this like there's always a couple of one liners, waiters and policemen and things like that. And I just go John's the policeman and Pete's the bus driver and I'm the waiter. Right. And that'll be fine.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: And then I usually consider how much the Admiral has to do in an episode as to whether or not Bob should take on a part. If it's a big Admiral episode, we'll typically shy away from, from doing that. But otherwise Bob basically is in first position for any character because he's got so many voices in him.

SHANNON PERRY: I just, I don't know if I can write something for Bob. He's just so limited.

PAIGE KLANIECKI: Right. I mean, we have trouble figuring out what to do with him.

SHANNON PERRY: Really? Right. Seriously.

PAIGE KLANIECKI: So I got a question for, for the group, in all of your respective podcasts. Is there like, something you haven't gotten to write for it? But you would, like, it's your dream, like, scenario or character or idea, like, hasn't happened. Yeah, maybe it will. But like, what's the dream thing to write and to put in this podcast?

SHANNON PERRY: I really want to do and I keep talking about doing this and I haven't gotten, gotten it figured out yet, but I really want to do a a true crime version of Oz-9 and I want to get some genuine true crime podcasters to come and guest star. So, you know, Karen in Georgia, if you're listening, from My Favorite Murder, here's your invite slide on into my DMs ladies and let's chat.

DAVID S. DEAR: I just, I just got finished listening to Rick Rubin's book, "Creativity" and it's really kind of shaken me up. And so going into season six, I don't want it to be so functional that I'm just going to be ok, wrap it up and I don't want it to feel like that. So, especially listening to your, all of your conversations here. It's inspiring me to say "Ok, let me just play. It's the last season. Let's just try something different." The one thing that I've always wanted to do and it's been done so many times, but I guess everybody can do it is at some point is I kind of always like that whole either Paris, Texas, Memento or the Seinfeld and India kind of idea where you're writing in reverse. And I always like that idea and it's, it's, it's very challenging as a writer. But I've, each season I'm like, I wanna do this episode and then I keep going. Ah, it's been done. But, so is everything else, everything's been done.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: So, I'm like, well, you know, since your main character is unstuck in sort of time and space, I think your show lends itself to it.

DAVID S. DEAR: Well, and the world is very weird. So, I mean, we've already had the time loop thing but being in an episode where actually everything goes backwards is very ninth World because there are pockets of the ninth world where that actually happens. You could say.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: I could talk to all of you all night... and I have on several occasions. But, I wanna, I wanna ask one sort of, final question to, to everybody, could everybody name their, their, their biggest joy and their biggest challenge when it comes to writing audio fiction.

PAIGE KLANIECKI: You mean the format or our specific, like the, the endeavor that we're all in right now, like the show that we're doing?

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: Mmmm... either. Either.

DAVID S. DEAR: The biggest joy is, is actually, I think it's, it's, it's a combination of hearing the final product and, you know, realizing, oh, I'm happy with what that is. It's really creative and that came out of my brain, I just don't remember creating it. It's one of those things, you know, when you're kind of in that other space. So that to me is just an absolute thrill. It's an absolute thrill. And I also love getting, getting the, the accolades from, from listeners who, who really found great joy in the show. And it just delights me that people are entertained by what's coming out of my head, my mouth.

DAVID S. DEAR: So the, the, the challenge is, you know, is it's kind of a financial slash talent search challenge, which is I'm, I have no love of digging up sound effects for a world that's a billion years in the future and trying to make them work match what's in my head. I have no love for that and I have no love for patience for foly work. And I don't have unlimited funds to, to find the ideal person who knows exactly how to translate that and make it happen. So that that end of the production is not my favorite.

PETE BARRY: I think the challenge is the deadlines can be stressful at times when you're up against a thing that, you know, it's got to happen and you are being both the producer and the creator and the technician, right? That's three things that you are both. But you know, it's exhilarating, but it can make you tear your hair out a little bit.

PETE BARRY: The joy is maybe a little big for me, but I'll say it this way when I was about eight years old. My friends and I got together in my friend's driveway with an old, like, I think it was a film video, not a video camera, but a film kind of super cameras and a little, yeah, and a little tape deck. And we made a scene from a movie called Political Trouble, which was almost entirely stolen from the TV. Show Benson and had some jokes that frankly I still think hold up to this day. And I feel like that is what I've always wanted to do, make things with my friends in a driveway or in a garage or in a basement. That's what I am and that's what I want to do and here I am doing it. So that's the joy for me.

SHANNON PERRY: I, I get to write these fun characters that, you know, and I don't know that they were so much fun until my friends got a hold of them and started maneuvering them into what they are today. But it's just, it's fun to sit down and, and write them and, and imagine my friends laughing at that and then go into the read through and actually get to see them laughing at that, which is really fun. I love that. I love making people laugh. I think that's a, a delightful thing. The challenge for me is I'm constantly running up against my own limitations.

SHANNON PERRY: I think it's part of the problem of listening to a lot of audio fiction too is I hear how well other people do it and it's kind of, you know, while I admire and respect their abilities and the, the discipline it got to get them there, it took to get them there. It's also kind of like, you know, I can't yet. So that's a little bit of the challenge for me.

PAIGE KLANIECKI: It's similar, you know... greatest joy similar to what has been said. But yeah, I, I think my priority is just I'm trying to make the people in the room laugh with me or the people in the email and like laugh at the things I'm doing. So if I'm doing that, like that's the biggest gratification is when, you know, one of the cow writers writes a lull note on a draft I've written or in, in a recording session, just like, yeah, hearing people laugh at a, at a line or someone take a line and make it even funnier like that.

PAIGE KLANIECKI: That is very gratifying that collaborative comedic element and a somewhat related greatest challenge is, you know, by nature of, of audio drama, you're able to do a lot of it separate from each other. So sometimes, you know, there, there isn't necessarily that immediate when I'm writing, I'm by myself. I'm not in a room with people pitching ideas necessarily as much as I would like. Because, you know, it's one of the reasons that makes audio fiction very, very accessible and very doable to, to make as, as you all have. But sometimes, you know, you're not necessarily in the room with the people you want to be making it with at all moments.

MICHAEL DEANGELIS: Well, I just want to thank everybody for taking the time tonight. It's always such a joy to talk to my friends, particularly about the thing that we're also passionate about. You're all such wonderful writers and performers. It's a joy to know you and to be around you and you get me all jazzed up to to get back to work.

DAVID S. DEAR: Thanks for the invitation. It's a pleasure and an honor.

PAIGE KLANIECKI: Absolutely wonderful. As always looking forward to seeing what comes out of all of all of your fingertips and pens next.

MISSION VOICE: Mission: Rejected was created by Pete Barry, J. Michael DeAngelis and John Dowgin. This episode was produced and edited by J. Michael DeAngelis.

MISSION VOICE: It starred Katerina McGrath as the Mission Voice... and no one else. At last.

MISSION VOICE: Featured in conversation from the courtroom were Pete Barry, J. Michael DeAngelis, John Dowgin and Paige Klaniecki with special guests, David S. Deer of A 9th World Journal and Shanon K. Perry of Oz-9. Music by Pete Barry.

MISSION VOICE: Our Patreon members heard an extended and unedited version of this episode along with other bonus material and creator Meet and greets all during the hiatus. You can get in on the action for as little as a dollar a month. Visit www.missionrejected.com/support for more information. This has been a Port Room production. Copyright 2023 Extraordinary Missions Limited.